Return-path: X-Andrew-Authenticated-as: 0;andrew.cmu.edu;Network-Mail Received: from andrew.cmu.edu via trymail for +dist+/afs/andrew.cmu.edu/usr1/ota/space/space.dl@andrew.cmu.edu (->+dist+/afs/andrew.cmu.edu/usr1/ota/space/space.dl) (->ota+space.digests) ID ; Sat, 24 Sep 88 06:33:47 -0400 (EDT) Received: from po3.andrew.cmu.edu via qmail ID ; Sat, 24 Sep 88 06:32:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from po5.andrew.cmu.edu via qmail ID ; Sat, 24 Sep 88 04:08:39 -0400 (EDT) Received: from andrew.cmu.edu via qmail ID ; Sat, 24 Sep 88 04:06:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: by ANDREW.CMU.EDU (5.54/3.15) id for +dist+/afs/andrew.cmu.edu/usr1/ota/space/space.dl; Sat, 24 Sep 88 04:05:57 EDT Received: by angband.s1.gov id AA09591; Sat, 24 Sep 88 01:08:14 PDT id AA09591; Sat, 24 Sep 88 01:08:14 PDT Date: Sat, 24 Sep 88 01:08:14 PDT From: Ted Anderson Message-Id: <8809240808.AA09591@angband.s1.gov> To: Space+@andrew.cmu.edu Reply-To: Space+@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: SPACE Digest V8 #374 SPACE Digest Volume 8 : Issue 374 Today's Topics: wealth of mature spacefaring societies space exploration/exploitation Re: Space Disposal of Nuclear Wastes Re: wealth of mature spacefaring societies Please keep postings relevant to space ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 7 Sep 88 18:02:00 GMT From: apollo!nelson_p@eddie.mit.edu (Peter Nelson) Subject: wealth of mature spacefaring societies 'Da Plane, da plane, boss...' 'It's a spaceship, Tatoo, but yes, you're right. Today's guest here on Fantasy Newsgroup is Mr. Macleod who posts... >Let me add my endorsement. Two thousand years ago (and much more recently >in some cultures) the Roman soldier's daily pay brought him the price of >a quart or two of wheat. Today I make enough daily to buy a small home >computer. This is what wealth is all about. In less than 100 years >we have gone from no automobiles to a point where virtually anybody can >own one. First of all, you don't know that Roman soldier : rich American is a reasonable comparison. Neither is particularly representative of the species at his time in history. To make another silly comparison-- Today only the rich can own a horse, a hundred years ago horse ownership was common. Anyway most people CANNOT own a car. Your ethnocentrism is showing. More to the point, extrapolations can be tricky. It's true that the average American is richer than he was a hundred years ago but he is *poorer* than he was in the 60's. Nowadays, two incomes are required to maintain a standard of living that one could maintain at that time. Which way is the curve heading these days? If you had extrapolated from the time when dinosaurs first appeared on earth to when Brontosaurus existed you might have concluded that there would be lots of huge, powerful dinosaurs around today. Another BIG difference is that our material standard of living is not mainainable in its current form. We cannot continue to consume non-renewable resources or generate pollution and other waste at the current rate. Automobiles are MAJOR pollution sources both in their use and their manufacture/maintenance/infrastructure requirements. Also, remeber that the Roman soldier's generous payscale was a function of non-maintainable factors, too. (i.e., the Roman Empire) Of course, this may ALSO be a silly extrapolation. Another factor is that the 'wealth' or standard of living of most Americans is illusory. I doubt you could afford to buy a home computer on a day's pay if that computer and all it's parts were made by people enjoying an American wage scale. A lot of our standard of living is based on other countries having much lower wages, fewer pollution standards, etc. Roman senators were wealthy in the same way. >In one of my stories there is a race that has had a basically Are you a writer? Where? >libertarian spacefaring civilization for about 800 years. They are organized >into clans, large extended families, and are so rich that clans typically >own hundreds of planets. The technological base is such that an average- >sized spaceship - with hyperdrive capability - costs the equivalent of about >15 minutes of labor. Ah yes, FTL travel. Where would science fiction be without it? If we're willing to postulate FTL travel why not alternative universes or time travel as a future solution to our problems? > It's important to realize, my friends, that there is *no limit* on > how good things can get! ...Or how bad they can get. Sure, maybe the world of the future will be bright and clean with robots doing all the manufacturing and everyday is Saturday and the malls are open and our pockets are stuffed with money. Or maybe it will be a cyberpunk's worst nightmare with rain 'sour and acid, nearly the color of piss' (William Gibson), respirators required for a simple walk down the street, and remote pain inducers implanted at birth by a high-tech tyranny to keep 20 billion people passive. These are matters of religion (faith) and science fiction, not sci.space. While we fritter our time away in fantasy, other countries have real space programs with realistic goals and programs to accomplish them. If anyone on this group ever does get into space it will probably be at the whim of the Russians or Japanese. --Peter Nelson ------------------------------ Date: 7 Sep 88 19:40:00 GMT From: apollo!nelson_p@eddie.mit.edu (Peter Nelson) Subject: space exploration/exploitation Dillon Pyron posts: > Yes, I know what it costs. Great, perhaps you could tell the rest of us. I have no idea what it would cost to put up a permanent, self-sufficient colony in space (except that it would be plenty) - AND NOBODY ELSE DOES EITHER. The engineering and design hasn't been done. Nobody has made a business plan. > I also know how much a HARM missle costs, and I'd rather spend > the money putting people into space. So would I. On the other hand, the Russians seem to be able to do both. > In both your commentaries, I have not seen one response which > actually addresses any of the issues presented. What issues?? The only issue here is that this net has a lot of would-be space cadets who bought tickets on the PanAm moon shot a few years back and expect to cash them in. This started when somebody informed us that he had 'plans' to go into space and I asked what these 'plans' consisted of. 'Answer came there none.' > The reason we are stuck is because nay-sayers like you are > afraid we can't do it, so let's not. God, I had no idea I had such powers of persuasion. In that case, send me all your money. Don't blame others for your inaction. Have you actually *tried* to get something going? Has anyone made a good business plan? Get to work on it! ...Oh, I see. You would except for the government. That D.O.T. thing is just a sham to fool innocents like Conatec, MacDonnel Douglas, etc. OK, then how much have you personally done to push more lenient legislation through Congress? How many petitions have you picked up, how much PAC money have you raised? These fearless space pioneers are afraid of nothing: they laugh at radiation, money is no object, the vaccum of space holds no terror for them, the distance, the time, the loneliness- big deal......the paperwork...AAIIIEEEE!! > My plans involve pushing my employer into space in one form > or fashion, as a first step. Haven't we all wanted to do this at one time or another? Which version of the word 'plans' is this? > Do you have any idea what it will cost not to put nations > in space? No. Do you? I hope we get a space program going here, either via NASA or private enterprise. All I'm criticizing are the junior space cadets who won't have anything to do with any effort not directed at setting up a Libertarian space colony or who waste time in such dreams while other nations work on real space programs. You can tell where these people are coming from as Dale.Amon gets to the good stuff... < Independent settlers are isolated and quite capable of defending , mvs@meccsd.MECC.MN.ORG (Michael V. Stein) writes: Writing about burying nuclear wastes in hard rock formations rather than sending it into space: > > You are damn right it will cost less. It will also be several billion times > safer. > Do you have a reference for those figures? The "Space Disposal of Nuclear Wastes" studies done by Battelle in the early 1980s found the cost to be twice as high for space disposal vs underground burial, with a marginal improvement in expected deaths due to radiation exposure (on the order of 1 death rather than 2 deaths) over the life of the storage (>1 million years). The space disposal alternative was made safe by encasing the waste in an armored sphere (9 inches of stainless steel) covered with Shuttle type tiles, so even in a worst case launch vehicle accident, the waste is contained. The Boeing subcontract study manager, Rich Reinart, claimed he would be happy to have a 'waste ball' buried in his driveway to keep the snow off (they give off about 2 kW in heat). -- Dani Eder / Boeing / Space Station Program / uw-beaver!ssc-vax!eder (205)464-4150(w) (205)461-7801(h) 1075 Dockside Drive #905 Huntsville, AL 35824 34 40 N latitude 86 40 W longitude +100m altitude, Earth ------------------------------ Date: 8 Sep 88 04:18:46 GMT From: aramis.rutgers.edu!klaatu.rutgers.edu!josh@rutgers.edu (J Storrs Hall) Subject: Re: wealth of mature spacefaring societies >Let me add my endorsement. Two thousand years ago (and much more recently >in some cultures) the Roman soldier's daily pay brought him the price of >a quart or two of wheat. ... First of all, you don't know that Roman soldier : rich American is a reasonable comparison. Neither is particularly representative of the species at his time in history. Roman soldier : *average* American is a reasonable comparison, i.e. middle level member of the dominant imperial power of the age. Today only the rich can own a horse, a hundred years ago horse ownership was common. A distortion, since it is easier to own a horse now (in terms of % of average income); most people merely don't because they don't need to. A horse was a major investment in the days of yore; stealing one was a capital crime. Anyway most people CANNOT own a car. Your ethnocentrism is showing. This is because their political leaders find it expedient to keep them in poverty, and has nothing to do with the argument, which is about possible curves of technological development. It was always a given that political idiocy could prevent a species from developing star travel. More to the point, extrapolations can be tricky. It's true that the average American is richer than he was a hundred years ago but he is *poorer* than he was in the 60's. Same comment. Another BIG difference is that our material standard of living is not mainainable in its current form. We cannot continue to consume non-renewable resources or generate pollution and other waste at the current rate. Automobiles are MAJOR pollution sources both in their use and their manufacture/maintenance/infrastructure requirements. Also, remeber that the Roman soldier's generous payscale was a function of non-maintainable factors, too. (i.e., the Roman Empire) Of course, this may ALSO be a silly extrapolation. It certainly is. After all, we are on the very brink of running out of whale oil (a *renewable* resource) and the streets of New York are knee deep in horseshit. If we do run out of resources, it will simply be because the technophobes have managed to prevent the natural cycle of substitution by advancing technologies. Another factor is that the 'wealth' or standard of living of most Americans is illusory. I doubt you could afford to buy a home computer on a day's pay if that computer and all it's parts were made by people enjoying an American wage scale. ... Wrong. When you subtract the 43% the government steals from the American, the Japanese makes more. And his products work reliably. However, this is only another example of the political idiocy we saw before. America may well be headed for a big decline. Right now the exponential growth curve of technology is just about balanced by the exponential decline of sociosclerosis. Technophobia is only one symptom of this. Mr. Nelson's horror of pollution has nothing to do with the potentiality of technological advance. If we have hospital wastes on our beaches, remember that both the hospitals and the beaches are the luxuries of the middle class. The advancing technology argument for star travel does not require that we must necessarily overcome our collective stupidity and avail ourselves of the nearly limitless opportunities and riches just before our noses. It only requires that it not be necessary that we fail. Then, somewhere in a big big universe, some race of more worthy creatures will succeed, and ride the power curve to the stars. If that leaves some backward-looking technophobes sitting in their own excrement because it's natural that way, then maybe there is some justice after all. > It's important to realize, my friends, that there is *no limit* on > how good things can get! ...Or how bad they can get. Sure, maybe the world of the future will be bright and clean with robots doing all the manufacturing and everyday is Saturday and the malls are open and our pockets are stuffed with money. Or maybe it will be a cyberpunk's worst nightmare with rain 'sour and acid, nearly the color of piss' (William Gibson), respirators required for a simple walk down the street, and remote pain inducers implanted at birth by a high-tech tyranny to keep 20 billion people passive. "States have needed people as workers because human labor has been the necessary foundation of power. What is more, genocide has been expensive and troublesome to organize and execute. Yet, in this century totalitarian states have slaughtered their citizens by the millions. Advanced technology will make workers unnecessary and genocide easy. History suggests that totalitarian states may then eliminate people wholesale. There is some consolation in this. It seems likely that a state willing and able to enslave us biologically would instead simply kill us." (Eric Drexler) Gibson is a romantic. These are matters of religion (faith) and science fiction, not sci.space. While we fritter our time away in fantasy, other countries have real space programs with realistic goals and programs to accomplish them. If anyone on this group ever does get into space it will probably be at the whim of the Russians or Japanese. Don't be so sure. World politics can change completely and rapidly; space travel if not done by a bureaucracy is reasonably cheap with current technology, easily within the capability of most sovereign nations and any Fortune 500 company; you may live longer than you think. --JoSH ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Sep 88 10:13:01 PDT From: Eugene Miya Subject: Please keep postings relevant to space Come on guys! Let's move nuclear waste discussions to sci.physics, exploitation and economic discussions to the politics newsgroups, and keep the cross posting to a minimum. I am beginning to think we should break this newsgroup into other separate groups (except for those who reads this as a digest on the Internet side). I would almost lay a $10 bet that the net could not keep silent for 1 week (almost). --eugene miya Thu Sep 8 10:12:26 PDT 1988 ------------------------------ End of SPACE Digest V8 #374 *******************